第九集:“你生我的气了吗?”
养育子女一直是地球上最艰难的工作之一。现在，除了在一个以科技为中心、期望很高的世界里与我们的孩子培养和建立关系外，父母和照顾者还必须应对冠状病毒危机造成的所有新的焦虑触发因素。为了帮助人们在这些不确定的时期更容易地应对，《培养好奇的学习者》的主持人邀请了临床社会工作者兼作家卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士。她的新书，如何停止在孩子面前发脾气，作为一个实用的指南，以更用心，自我同情，冷静和快乐的方式养育孩子。
主持人:伊丽莎白Romanski．
成绩单
隐藏文字记录
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(00:11)
您正在收听的是《大英百科全书》家长播客节目《培养好奇的学习者》，在节目中，我们与专家对话，讨论儿童发展、教育和育儿方面的问yabo亚博网站首页手机题和趋势。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(00:33):
欢迎回到《培养好奇的学习者》。我是伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基，和往常一样，我的搭档是安·加兹科夫斯基。在《父yabo亚博网站首页手机母的大英百科全书》中，我们知道养育子女是世界上最难的工作之一，我们今天的嘉宾是一位专家，他试图让你们的父母生活变得更容易一些。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(00:57):
毫无疑问，疫情给家长们带来了很大的压力。
Ann Gadzikowski (01:01):
你知道，我认识的每一位父母和照顾者，我交谈过的每一个人，都在与远程学习、社交距离、经济担忧以及疫情造成的所有其他新情况造成的所有新压力作斗争。在《大英百科全书》中，我们为父母提供的主要关注点是yabo亚博网站首页手机提供资源，帮助他们应对这种新常态。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(01:22)
完全正确。所以今天在我们的播客中，我们要和一位专家谈谈如何帮助父母应对这种压力。今天我们要欢迎Carla Naumburg博士。她是作家、母亲和临床社会工作者。她的最新著作是《如何停止对孩子发脾气:成为一个更冷静、更快乐的父母的实用指南》。谢谢你今天的到来，卡拉。
Carla Naumburg博士(01:43):
谢谢你！我很高兴来到这里。
Ann Gadzikowski (01:45):
欢迎,卡拉。我们很高兴能和你谈话。不如你先告诉我们你是如何对为父母写书产生兴趣的?
卡拉·瑙伯格博士(01:53):
哦，这很简单。当我为人父母时，我很快意识到我不知道自己在做什么，而且这比我想象的要困难得多。我一直在努力解决问题，在写作中找到答案，无论是像我小时候写日记一样，还是写关于育儿的书。所以，嗯，这就是我开始写这本书的原因，当时我真的想找出一些答案，一些策略，一些如何管理养育子女的想法，然后就写了书。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(02:20)
你知道，养育孩子似乎越来越难，这甚至是在大流行之前。我很好奇，为什么这么多父母在挣扎，疫情是如何让情况变得更糟的?
卡拉·瑙伯格博士(02:32):
好的。所以，让我们来解决为什么在大流行之前养育孩子似乎更难的问题。我认为这有几个原因。我想可能每一代人都觉得养育孩子很难，但我确实认为养育孩子是独一无二的困难。我认为有几个原因。
“First parenting”在20世纪70年代之前并不是一个动词。如果你读过Jennifer Senior的书，“所有的快乐和没有乐趣”，这是一本关于育儿的社会学探索，她指出，你知道，那些和孩子呆在家里的女人——真的是女人——过去被称为“家庭主妇”。他们的工作是照看房子。你知道，你把孩子放在该放的地方或者让孩子出去玩。你打扫干净熨烫床单。现在，呆在家里的女性被称为“呆在家里的妈妈”。如果你的房子很乱也没关系，没关系。如果你的床单没熨过，那我也没熨过。我都不知道你为什么要这么做。因为你的工作就是照顾好你的孩子。 And so all of a sudden there is this pressure on parents that I think didn't really exist before. Our job before was to keep our kids alive long enough that they could pick up whatever the family job is. You learn to be a doctor like your father. You learn to be a blacksmith or a farmer, whatever it is. And now we are preparing our children for an unknown future, right? My husband works for businesses that work on apps, not appetizers, like applications on phones, right? So these phones, the internet, wasn't a thing when we were kids. Phones, weren't a thing when we were kids. Apps, weren't a thing. So literally he's working in jobs that didn't exist when we were children, and I think parents are acutely aware that we're supposed to prepare our children for things that don't even exist yet, and that's really anxiety provoking.
我还认为，社交媒体在为什么现在育儿如此困难的问题上发挥了巨大的作用，因为我们得到的关于育儿应该是什么样子的信息往往是不准确、不真实或不现实的。它们就像过滤版的父母最好的时刻。然后我们都认为没有别人的孩子会崩溃，这是不对的。
最后，这听起来有点丰富，来自一个写了很多育儿书的人，但我认为育儿专家实际上让事情变得更难。比如有人能成为真正的育儿专家?我认为这也建立了一种不切实际的想法，即有些人已经掌握了这项工作，并且知道如何让他们的孩子第一次就穿上鞋子。老实说，我也很纠结。我们都需要。所以我认为育儿专家的想法是非常有用的。绝对的。但我认为这是一把双刃剑，它们也会让事情变得更难。自从大流行以来，我的意思是，现在一切都变得更加困难了。所有这些，但是有很多原因。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(04:59)
我有个简短的跟进。在你的书中，你提到我们这代人在养育孩子方面大喊大叫，你认为这是因为像你说的，养育孩子越来越难了吗?或者你有没有想过，为什么我们这代人会大喊大叫，而其他父母则会更多地打孩子屁股，我只是好奇。
Carla Naumburg博士(05:20):
所以我认为每一代父母都以不同的方式对他们的孩子严厉。我是说，我们以前打小孩，对吧。过去有很多，可以被描述为忽视的，尽管这可能很常见，我不想说合适，但对于那种风格或那个社区来说真的很常见或典型。但我认为现在我们知道打孩子是非常非常不好的，你不应该打你的孩子，但父母仍然会因为各种原因感到压力很大。我是说，即使在好日子里，为人父母也很难。所以他们就会大喊大叫。但我认为我们更多地谈论它的原因之一是因为，我认为在人性中，我们第一次真正关心与孩子的关系。现在让我说清楚，我不是说以前不关心他们的孩子。我并不是说前几代父母不爱他们，但我们是第一代被明确告知，你和孩子的关系很重要，这可能会影响他们长大后成为什么样的成年人。以前的人都没听说过。 I mean, you remember all these psychological studies about kids who were being left in cribs and don't, don't over love your baby because you'll damage them and don't touch them or hug them too much. And now we're being told just the opposite that you need to give them sort of the perfect and exact right amount of love and attention, or you're going to screw them up forever. And so I think that makes parents these days perhaps feel even more guilty when we lose our temper than previous parents may have. But let me be clear. I'm not saying this generation of parents is any worse at it, I just think we have a lot more pressure on us.
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(06:41)
是的。这让我想起在我们推出《父母的大英百科全书》网站之前我所做的一些研究，在那里我观察了千禧一代的父母，他们更有可能把他们的孩子视为他们的朋友之一，这就是为什yabo亚博网站首页手机么这种关系现在在界限之间造成了更多的融合。
Carla Naumburg博士(07:02):
绝对的。我的意思是，没有上一代人会说他们会说，这是我的后代。这是我未来的保险。这个人将会继续家族事业。这并没有什么错。这就是世代相传的方式，对吧?
Ann Gadzikowski (07:13):
你说的关于科技的事真的让我很吃惊。技术变化得如此之快，任何人都很难跟上它。所以这肯定给父母增加了额外的压力，因为他们并不总是了解他们的孩子正在使用的技术。
Carla Naumburg博士(07:29):
哦，我完全同意。压力存在于很多层面，不仅是父母对科技的参与，尤其是当我们的孩子还小的时候，比如，“我应该用一个应用程序来记录他们一天有多少尿布吗?”到社交媒体，“其他父母都在做什么，我做得对吗?”现在，在大流行期间，这一点尤其突出，对于我们这些有大孩子的人来说，“他们有多少屏幕时间?他们看电视的时间是怎样的?我要有多害怕才行"我的意思是，我的女儿们现在正在玩《Roblox》，这不是这款应用的广告。这只是一个诚实的披露，这就是她们正在做的事情。因为我丈夫和我都在工作。他们非常感谢，我非常感谢在疫情期间有半天的学校，这太神奇了。但正常情况下，他们现在应该还在学校。事实并非如此。 So they're on screen time. Cause that's the only way I know they're not going to interrupt me during this podcast. So I absolutely agree with you that there's so much fear and worry about how will screen time and the amount of screen time our kids get impact their development and growth. And again, we are a pioneering generation of parents in this way for better or for worse. You know, when I was a kid, I got a huge amount of screen time, but the phrase "screen time" didn't even exist. I watched like "The Love Boat" and "The A Team". I'm not saying that was great. And now there's so many different options and what should I be choosing? And what should I allow and how much? I don't know, it's challenging.
Ann Gadzikowski (08:44):
然后随着大流行，每个人都24小时在家，父母需要休息一下。
Carla Naumburg博士(08:49):
父母需要休息一下。但父母也需要工作。
Ann Gadzikowski (08:52):
真实的。
Carla Naumburg博士(08:53):
如果你是一位足够幸运的父母，你可以在家工作。你知道，你好像中了彩票，因为你有一份工作，你可以在家里做。那你怎么照顾你的孩子呢?即使是已经长大到可以自娱自乐的孩子，一天也只有那么多时间。至少这是我和我的孩子们的经历，我认为他们自己玩得很好，但在他们完成之前，他们要做的拼图、要读的书或我能让他们参与的艺术项目是有限的，要么我还得工作，要么我太累了，无法娱乐他们。所以，是的，屏幕出来了。绝对的。
Ann Gadzikowski (09:23):
在压力这么大的时候，真的需要育儿专家给我们一些指导。你的很多建议和想法似乎都基于正念的重要性。你能谈谈你工作中的正念吗?
Carla Naumburg博士(09:38):
绝对的。所以我写这本书的目标之一就是写一本从根本上讲正念的书，而不是真正使用“M”这个词，因为我认为它会让一些父母失去兴趣，它会唤起这种感觉，“哦，你应该去吃你的羽衣甘蓝。”对了，我受不了羽衣甘蓝。但是关于做一个用心的父母意味着什么有各种各样的假设。我说的是找到一种策略和一种练习，让你放慢脚步，足够地跳出你自己的思维，真正地关注当下发生的事情，而不是，你知道，你自己的大脑里所有的嗡嗡作响。担心未来，担心过去，为可能发生或可能没有发生或可能永远不会发生的事情感到压力。当我们能从不断的胡思乱想中走出来，回到当下，注意到真正发生的事情，我们就能成为更有效的父母，更冷静，更善良，更少反应的父母。我进入正念的方式是，我在书中写了这个，我有点绝望，想要找到一种停止对我的孩子大喊大叫的方法，以至于我真的坐下来——这是几年前的事了——在谷歌上搜索，“我如何停止对我的孩子大喊大叫?”我在谷歌搜索栏中输入了这些词，并记住，当时我刚刚完成临床社会工作的博士学位，这基本上是一个大情感和混乱思想的高级学位。我想不出来。 So it's, it's really a struggle, but I would say that mindfulness and this ability to notice when my brain is spinning out of control, when I am parenting from a place of regret or worry or anxiety or anger, to notice that's what's happening for me and find a way to kind of slow down and come back to the present moment. And that's been especially important during the pandemic when I can really notice myself getting super anxious, right? I think one of my favorite memes of this year says "Welcome to 2020. If you do not yet have an anxiety disorder, one will be assigned to you." Which is both like funny and also so sad and awful. But you know, we are living in an incredibly unbelievably anxiety-provoking time. And I don't want to parent from that place of anxiety, not only because then I make decisions that aren't grounded necessarily in reality, but also because I get incredibly irritable when I'm anxious. That's one of my sort of red flags is I get very cranky with my kids and I don't want to do that. So when I can manage my anxiety, which is about accepting it and noticing when it's triggered, I can parent from a more effective and empathic place.
伊丽莎白罗曼斯基(11:52):
我能理解和联系。我是一个随着焦虑的增加而变得易怒的人。所以我很好奇，你的很多策略就像你说的那样，重点是试图找出你的触发点，这样你就可以在达到峰值之前控制自己，比如崩溃点。今年可能——不可能，是——更有挑战性，因为它为父母创造了很多新的触发点。比方说，一位家长在今年之前很好地理解了什么会让他们生气，他们知道如何减轻它。但是今年又引入了很多新的诱因。那么他们是如何平衡现有的和这些新的呢?就像我，我觉得这里一片混乱。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(12:34):
绝对是一片混乱。我讲清楚一点。我在书中对诱因的定义是，诱因是任何让你更容易对孩子发脾气的东西。它可以是任何事情，你知道，疲劳和焦虑，到你付不起的账单，或者脚趾甲向内生长，或者，你知道，朋友对你说的一些令人沮丧的话，你不太确定如何解释，或者，你知道，有很多事情可以触发你，你是对的。我的意思是，对我们中的许多人来说，即使在大流行之前，我们大部分时间都在被触发，而触发，我的意思是，我们的神经系统被激活了。我们的防御已经建立起来，我们已经准备好失去它了。我在书中描述它的方式是我谈论我们的纽扣，我们所有人的身上都有这些隐喻性的纽扣。当我们被触发时，这些按钮会变得又大又亮又红，非常敏感，超级容易按。任何和孩子一起坐过电梯的人都知道，当孩子看到按钮时，他们就想按下去。不代表这孩子有什么问题。 It's just human nature, right? Our kids know, they know when we're triggered and often they may be triggered too. And so then they come along and they push the buttons and we lose it. For most of us, even before the pandemic, we were walking around triggered a lot, because more parents are working outside the home now than they ever were. And that, you know, constant exhaustion running around balancing work and life and all the things is a trigger. 24 hours news cycle is a trigger. Social media is a trigger, like all these things. So now enter this pandemic and we are all in an unbelievably heightened state, right? So even our baseline, even the best we can be is significantly more triggered than it was. And this is true for all of us. So what do we do? Well, we have to ramp up our coping skills, you know, for some people, maybe they have more time to do this because they're not schlepping their kids all over the place to soccer or, you know, to all the activities, right? So maybe they have a little more time, but you know, if you're out of a job, which means you have more time on your hands, your stress level has also gone up exponentially, right? Because you don't have a job, you don't have money. Lack of structure can be a trigger, all those things. And if your kids are home more, right? That lack of free time, free space, or just the time away from your kids. 'Cause let's be honest, those kids, they don't stop pushing buttons. Right? What I recommend for most parents is to whatever ability you can, you have to kick up your coping mechanisms around getting sleep, moving your body. I have a whole list of them in the book, but also this is the time when we have to dig deep for self compassion and realize that this is literally an experience that I think there are very few human beings alive who are around for the 1918 pandemic. Even those individuals, you know, that was a completely different pandemic if for no other reason than we didn't have internet. Right? So that changed everything. But literally none of us have lived through this before. None of us have parented in an age of the internet and a pandemic before. And there's, there's no rule book, there's no advice book. And so we have to just continue to have a huge amount of compassion for ourselves. That's really my number one strategy and practice. And I do a deep dive into self compassion in the book.
安·加济科夫斯基(15:20):
让我们举个例子看看父母们现在的处境。让我们从爸爸的角度来思考，因为我知道我们经常谈论妈妈，让我们把爸爸也包括进来。假设我们有一个在家工作的爸爸，也许他有一个伴侣，但他的伴侣那天感觉不舒服。所以爸爸知道他真的会在那天，他没有睡很多觉。他想了很多关于新闻的事。有一则新闻报道使他心烦意乱。那个爸爸怎么能把自我同情和自我照顾的理念带到他的孩子身上呢?
Carla Naumburg博士(15:56):
绝对的。我喜欢这个。让我们承认，如果妈妈身体不舒服，爸爸会担心妈妈感染了COVID吗?爸爸还有其他家庭成员吗，他关心或担心的父母，家庭经济安全吗?让我们承认这是一个挑战。这是我想对爸爸说的关于自我同情和自我照顾。
第一，把你一天要完成的事情的期望值降低。爸爸，如果你那天要上班，你有病假吗?你有可以请假的工作时间吗?如果没有，你今天还得工作。我希望，我的祈祷是你们有一个工作社区，在那里你可以对他们说:“嘿，我的妻子今天病了。我负责照看孩子。所以我只是想让你知道，如果我不像平时那样存在，这就是原因。”但我意识到，并不是每个人都有这样的工作群体，他们可以这样说，对吧?他们没有善解人意的老板或同事。然后爸爸，如果你需要的话，我要引用《野性》的作者格伦农·梅尔顿的话，我很崇拜她。 she's sort of a social media figure and a very popular writer, motivational speaker, she's got kids. If you need to put your kids in front of what she calls a quick seven hour TV show to get through the day, dad that's okay. That is, and I will tell you as someone who spent many summers, literally staring at the TV eight hours a day with my sister, because of the chaos of our own parenting situation, I went on to have a good life, right? I'm well educated. I have a husband, a supportive partner, kids. If that's what dad you need to do to get through this day, it is okay. Check in with your kids at the beginning of the day, spend some time with them at the end of the day, make sure to give them some food occasionally, like, that's what you gotta do.
如果爸爸有时间陪他的孩子，这是我的建议。一次只做一件事。我发现几乎不可能与孩子们互动或做其他任何事情。所以，如果爸爸对自己说:“哦，我要玩一款快速的大富翁游戏，还没轮到我的时候，我就拿出手机，查看我的工作邮件。”这是一场灾难。你最终会对你的孩子大发脾气。然后你会感到非常内疚，因为我们的大脑不能两者兼得。所以在力所能及的范围内，我鼓励他只做一件事，或者一次只做一件事。所以他对孩子们说:“我可以和你们玩半个小时的大富翁。我们不会在半小时内玩完这个大富翁游戏，因为大富翁游戏真的永远不会结束，但我可以为你玩半小时。 So I'm going to warn you that when the timer goes off, we have to stop the game, even if we're not at a good stopping point. So if we can all agree to that, and then I have to go do some work for half an hour and you guys can keep the game going yourselves, you can go watch a show, like whatever, and then we'll come back together." So I really encourage parents to focus on one thing at a time if they can.
然后可能在一天结束的时候，爸爸会觉得他做得不够好。这是我的猜测，因为这太难了。在那个年代，我不知道有谁能真正成功。我鼓励爸爸记住这对我们所有人来说都很艰难。甚至有些家长在社交媒体上说，“我教我的孩子今天的细胞是什么样子的。你知道，我们做了实验，我做了我的工作报告。”如果你看到了，首先，关闭社交媒体，但这对我们所有人来说都很难。这很难，没关系。这并不意味着你是个坏家长，明天又是新的一天。也许又是艰难的一天，但至少是新的一天。 So just find that positive, kind self-talk and if you don't have it within you go, go call somebody who does. Go talk to your parenting partner. If you have one, go talk to your parents or your friends, somebody who's going to say to you, Hey buddy, it's okay. This is a really hard time. It's not going to last forever and you don't have to be a perfect parent to be a good one. So, That's what I would say to dad.
Ann Gadzikowski (19:10):
我喜欢这个建议，降低期望。我认为每个人都需要这样做。这是非常棒的建议。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(19:20)
好的。是时候休息一下了，但别走开。我们马上回来。
Ann Gadzikowski (19:28):
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伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(20:01):
我很好奇。所以在书中你有一个很好的缩略词，我每次都从中得到乐趣，但它仍然做了一项了不起的工作，能够将熔毁的不同特征记录下来。我想知道你能否解释一下这个缩写。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(20:17):
是的。我可以解释这个。所以…它的首字母缩写是屁，你们的父母可能会觉得“恶心”，我特意把它放在这里，因为养育孩子有时很麻烦、很脏、很不愉快。显然我当妈妈太久了，因为厕所笑话还是会让我笑。但是，我试着利用我在书中所能利用的每一个机会来提醒父母，育儿这件事太严肃了，不能当真，我们必须自嘲。
但是，我真的想说清楚我所说的崩溃，父母和孩子的崩溃，因为我认为一些父母觉得任何时候他们对孩子表现出不愉快或消极的情绪，那就是崩溃，这是不对的。如果你感到生气、悲伤、沮丧、无助、失控、沮丧或焦虑，我不认为这是发脾气，这没有什么不对。让你的孩子知道你有这种感觉，这绝对没有什么错。但是当我们父母发脾气的时候有时会有一些特定的特征，这就更成问题了，我们都会这样做，对吧，但让我们来理解它们是什么。所以屁代表…F代表感情。我想说清楚的是，这些父母的崩溃，或者发脾气，失控。这是感情的问题。这是一种情绪化的反应，不是理性的。比如，我们大多数人工作一天后都不会回家，对我来说，这意味着现在从一个房间走到另一个房间，我们大多数人不会说，“哦，我想我现在要去和我的孩子们发脾气。” Right? It's about our feelings and our emotions, and many of us think we should be able to control our feelings, but guess what guys, we can't, nobody can control your feelings. They're just sort of there. They can be quite unpredictable, but I want parents to know this is it's a very emotional reaction. Meltdowns are often automatic. The "A" stands for automatic. So that means it's, it's neither conscious nor intentional. It's just sort of this automatic reaction, and reaction is what the "R" is for. In reaction to something else, and many of us may say, well, of course I lost it in reaction to my kid's ridiculous behavior, but sometimes we lose it when our kids aren't actually doing anything that bad. I mean, I can get so triggered at points that my daughter literally walks in the room and I want to be like, go away, walk out, leave, just turn around and leave. I can't handle you right now. And she's not done anything wrong. And sometimes she is actually being annoying, but it's nothing inappropriate for a 10 year old and I still lose it.
所以我们要看看我对什么做出了反应?我想说是我孩子的问题，但也可能是因为那天早些时候我和我丈夫不愉快的谈话。也许只是因为我们生活在一场流行病中，我再也无法应对了。你知道，也许是我昨晚在新闻上看到的一些事情，我还在思考，我实际上在某种程度上对此有反应。反应也是一个响应对真实的或者所感知到的危险,当我们的神经系统处于高度戒备状态,然后一个孩子出现和按下一个按钮,根据我们自己的历史作为父母,如果我们有一个创伤的历史在我们的童年,或是否有其他事情对我们来说,我们的神经系统会感知威胁我们的孩子的行为在某种程度上,尽管如此,你知道,我们大脑的深思熟虑的“成人”部分,我们的前额叶皮层可能知道,“哦,不,这孩子不是来威胁我的”，但是我们大脑的其他部分，一种非常深层的爬行动物，也许是非常古老的部分，一些我们童年的旧磁带现在正在播放，可能实际上会把它视为威胁，然后我们对此做出反应，甚至通常都没有意识到。“F”代表感觉，“A”代表自动，“R”代表反应，“T”代表有毒。
这就是我们要在父母的反应行为和真正有问题的行为之间划清界限的时候。假设你的孩子要躲到街上一辆车前面，你因为担心而用力抓住他的胳膊，把他拉了回来。所以这是一个适当的，合理的反应因为你在努力保护你孩子的安全，对吗?但假设你做类似的事情，当他们刚刚把牛奶洒出来时，你抓住他们的胳膊，把他们从桌子上使劲拉起来。这是一种不可预测的，不成比例的反应，这让孩子们感到困惑。这种程度的困惑对孩子来说是有害的。我不想吓到父母。我并不是说这种情况一直都在发生，但如果这种情况太强烈，太不可预测，太不相称，发生得太频繁，它真的会影响孩子的发展以及他们与父母的关系。所以如果你发现自己为打翻的牛奶尖叫，那么这可能是一个问题，这里发生了什么，为什么我对打翻的牛奶会有这种失控的反应?这就是我对崩溃的描述它是关于感觉的，它是自动的，它是反应性的，它是有毒的。 Yeah.
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(24:28):
我认为这很重要，你在开头提到的你可能认为你正在崩溃，但你可能没有。所以这里有一个帮助你识别的简单方法，因为我认为因为每个人，尤其是今年，都更加焦虑和担心成为一个好父母。他们可能会接受他们说过的话，甚至是在有车经过时保护他们的想法，他们可能会认为这太过分了，或者他们失去了理智。所以你真的需要识别并确定，你知道，在什么真正失去它和什么没有之间有明确的区别。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(25:02):
正确的。我总是对父母说，你在孩子面前有感情不仅是可以的，而且是可取的!我们希望我们的孩子明白，有强烈的感觉是可以的，即使是不愉快的感觉。这没什么不对的。这并不意味着你做错了什么。这并不意味着会发生危险的事情。这是人性的一部分。在一段关系中你可以有很大的感受。在一段关系中，你可以伤心，可以生气，可以沮丧，可以困惑，可以不知所措。这并不意味着你们的关系有任何问题。 So hopefully by now, my girls know that there are times when I get mad at their dad and when he gets mad at me, but that we love each other. We've been together for a long time. We're in a solid relationship, but that's normal. That's typical. So I want my kids to know that. So I encourage parents to find ways to identify their feelings when they're with their kids and say, "I'm feeling really mad right now. And I actually need to take a break so I don't yell at you guys." And that's the thing that I've been known to do. And my kids now know that when I go in the kitchen and put my hands flat on the counter and take a few deep breaths, they should probably leave me alone for awhile.
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(25:59):
是的。开始备份吧。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(26:01):
退后，离母亲远点。
Ann Gadzikowski (26:03):
他们也是像我一样的父母。当我不开心的时候，我就会变得很安静。我不会大喊大叫，我只是变得很安静。我知道你写过很多没说出来的话和说出来的一样多。你对安静的父母有什么建议吗?
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(26:18):
我想对安静的父母说的是，就像大喊大叫一样，就像任何情绪的表现一样，不管你看起来是什么样子，你都想向你的孩子解释，背后发生了什么，然后说:“你知道吗?我生气的时候会很安静。这是对我来说的一种方式。”因为孩子们的问题是他们非常以自我为中心，这只是正常的发展过程，最终，大多数人会长大，这并不意味着你的孩子是精神病患者。他们没有任何问题。但这样做的副作用之一是，他们认为自己是所有发生的事情的原因。所以，如果我们不对孩子说:“我感到难过，因为某某事发生了。”他们可能会想，哦，我是妈妈沉默的原因。我做错了什么。我就是妈妈大喊大叫的原因。 And then they sort of take responsibility for our feelings, which nobody is responsible for anybody else's feelings. It's just not how it works. And so it's really important when we can - and sometimes we don't get this clarity until after the moment has passed - It's really important to say to kids, "I was feeling X, Y, and Z, and that's why I did X, Y, and Z." Now, when I say that kids often learn more from what's unsaid than what we say, kids are super tuned into us and they're meant to be developmentally and evolutionarily they are because we keep them alive. So they need to know what's going on with us because we're the ones who protect them. And so if we say to a kid, "I'm fine!" They're not going to fall for that. They know. Right? And so if we say to a kid nothing's wrong and they can clearly sense that something's wrong, they're going to start building up stories in their mind. Right? "Is mommy mad at me? Did I do something wrong? Is this virus way worse than I think it is? Is somebody sick in my life? Are my parents getting a divorce? Like, did the dog die?" I mean, kids brains can really spiral out of control. And so I think one of the causes of stress in a family, not only for parents, but for children, is when we're afraid to describe our emotions, because we're afraid that it's going to make them stronger. We're afraid that things are going to get out of control. We're afraid that it's going to scare our kids, but it's actually more scary for kids and for adults to not know what's going on. So I really encourage parents when they're calm to talk to their kids about what happened and why.
Ann Gadzikowski (28:18):
是的。这真的很重要。当艰难的事情发生时，我认为每个人都想忘记它，继续前进，但重要的是花一分钟谈谈发生了什么，作为一个家庭来汇报情况，这样你的孩子就能更好地理解。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(28:32):
是的，我是说，我觉得我觉得你不必每次都这么做。不是每一刻都是学习的时刻。有时候事情就这样发生了，我们可以继续生活，你知道，父母对孩子发脾气，孩子对父母发脾气，有时最好的办法是忽略它，继续生活。但如果你看到了一种模式，就像我女儿和我一次又一次地陷入其中，最后我对她说，“当你说这些时，我不知道该怎么办。”她说:“说实话，我真的不知道我为什么这么说”——我认为这是真的。她说:“妈妈，你能不能忽略它，继续生活。”我说，“是的，大多数时候我都能做到。”所以我们一致认为这就是我们要做的。但如果这是一个重大时刻，如果这是一个非常破坏性的、有压力的、令人困惑的时刻，或者如果它变成了一种模式，那么我认为在你冷静的时候谈论它，当你合理地冷静的时候。不要试图欺骗自己。 If you're still ramped up and triggered and you go try to talk to your kid about it, you're just going to end up snapping at them again. But when you're legitimately calm, you can go try to talk to them and it may or may not get anywhere, but you can try.
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基:
是的。甚至早些时候，当你说你如何能够识别并告诉你的孩子你可能需要休息一段时间，我认为这对父母来说也是一个非常重要的工具。这是一个非常简单的方法来缓解你的情绪和缓和情绪。你知道，即使是戈特曼夫妇也会说，当你和你的配偶或伴侣吵架时，他们会说暂停，但当你和你的孩子在一起时，也要这样做。因为如果你至少能承认，你有这种感觉，然后如果你向他们展示你可以对自己的情绪足够负责，并且尊重他们，他们可能不值得你崩溃，你只是休息一下，那么对每个人来说都更容易。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(30:02):
绝对的。我认为许多父母对此感到不舒服，因为这感觉像是在向孩子展示脆弱，或者是承认自己的弱点。另外，父母们，孩子们已经知道你们所有的弱点了。他们绝对了解他们。他们知道你的纽扣，他们的小手指正好适合你。但我是这么想的。我想的是，我希望我的孩子能够做出什么样的行为。我为他们做了什么榜样?而不是把他们的脚埋在一场没有人会赢的战斗中，没有人记得它是如何开始的，你知道，然后，把它放大。如果这是发生在操场上或教室里或与他们的兄弟姐妹，那不是我想让我的孩子做的事情。 I would love it if my kid could say, "Whoa, I need to go take a time out and go in the other room." Like, that would be amazing, and the way they're going to learn it is by watching us do that. And so I apologize to my kids when I lose it, right. I don't apologize for my feelings cause no feelings were ever wrong. And you never have to apologize for how you feel, even if it's the ugliest most unpleasant feeling ever. But we do need to apologize for our behavior sometimes, right? "I was feeling angry and I'm really sorry I yelled at you." And after you apologize, then you can talk about maybe your kid's role in it. If they're, if your kid played some role, if their behavior was problematic, you can talk about that too. But that's after you've offered your sincere apology. So it can't be like, "I'm sorry, I yelled at you, but you throw the ball in the house 27 times when I told you not to." That's not an apology, right. I wish it was. So after you've legitimately apologized then you can talk to your kid about their role in whatever happened, but that's fine to you can apologize.
Ann Gadzikowski (31:30):
卡拉，我很好奇你在为你的书写作和研究的过程和经历，你在写作和研究的过程中有没有学到什么东西真正改变了你，改变了你为人父母的方式?
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(31:43):
噢,是的。很多事情。说实话，大部分都可以追溯到正念。我是一个坚定的怀疑论者。当我进入正念的世界时，我想，“这是为那些喜欢打鼓的肮脏嬉皮士准备的。”真的吗?我太可怕了。我太武断了。这不是为我的A型人格做的，打勾，做事。我在正念训练中学到的策略、技巧和见解，改变了我的生活，改变了我的教育方式，我认为最大的一个就是自我同情。 Because it used to be that every time I would lose it with my kids, I would go into the kitchen, search for chocolate to shove into my face, and think about all the ways I was failing as a parent and what a horrible mother I was. And here's the thing that, that kind of horrible self-talk is actually a trigger. So in the moment it would have been more helpful for me to be trying to calm down. I was actually getting myself more amped up, and then when I would go interact with my kids again, I was much more likely to yell at them, which it was the one thing I was feeling most guilty about. So now I still go in the kitchen. I still occasionally look for chocolate, I will not lie, but I am more likely to think to myself, okay, this is a hard day it's okay. Every parent has hard days. Doesn't mean I'm a bad parent. What do I need? And what do my kids need? And thinking about what we all need is not only inherently compassionate, but it's much more skillful, cause sometimes I'll think to myself, "Oh, my kid hasn't eaten in four hours. She's hangry, but she's not going to do any better until I feed her," which she inherited from me. Sorry, kid. Or, "Oh yeah. I'm actually having a really hard day because for some reason I've been doom scrolling through social media. So I need to put my phone in the other room and get away from it." So when I can have that moment of self compassion, it calms down my triggers. It makes me less likely to yell at my kids. And it often gives me some clarity on what's actually going on so I can then do something differently so I'll be less likely to lose it in the future. I would say that self compassion has become the most powerful strategy. One that I use every single day. I'm much more likely to be compassionate with my children, and so I actually lose my temper with them so much less because of it.
Ann Gadzikowski (33:37):
自我同情是，很难实践的。我和一些父母有过这样的对话，我想到了我现在认识的一位有小孩的母亲。她知道她需要对自己更有同情心。这太难了，尤其是当你这么忙的时候，要给自己一个信任。我希望我能为正在经历这些的朋友们做更多的事情。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(34:01):
所以，你可以做点什么。你还说了很重要很明智的话。我的意思是，我们能做的就是在他们没有的时候为他们发出同情的声音。我是这么想的。练习自我同情就像学习一门新语言。这就像学习一门新的语言，因为对我们大多数人来说，我们的父母不会对我们说。这并不是因为我们的父母有什么问题。这是因为它在很长一段时间里都不是一个概念，尤其是在西方文化中。我读完了心理学学士学位，社会工作硕士学位和社会工作博士学位。我从来没有听过这些词放在一起，直到我开始研究正念，我才了解到它。 So when we first try to speak the words of self compassion, they feel weird. They feel corny and cheesy. And like, do you guys remember the Saturday night live skit of Stuart Smalley who would sit in front of the mirror and look at himself and say, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh, darn it, people like me." None of us really want to be that guy, and so it feels really strange. It's really hard to find the words. And when we can't find them, we default back to whatever we used to say to ourselves, our native language, which is usually beating ourselves up. So how do we learn this new language? First of all, we spend time with people who will speak that language to us, that language of compassion. And so when my friends call me and they're in this place of like, "Oh, I had a horrible day and I'm a terrible parent. I'm screwing this up and my kids are going to be a mess." I try to refrain from giving them advice. And this is really hard because I love to give people advice, but I try not to do it because when you give people advice, what you're saying is "You could have done better, and here's how." So, even though we're doing this from a place of compassion, it often doesn't come across that way. So I try to just say, "Yeah, that sounds awful. I am sorry. This stinks. This is so rough. And then what happened?" I try to be curious with them. 'Cause curiosity is an inherently compassionate stance because what we're saying is "I care enough about you to continue to listen to your story. Your story matters to me." Maybe we'll laugh with them if we can, but being careful not to laugh at them. Um, but continuing to say, "Yeah, it's okay. This is really hard. You're not a bad parent. We've all been there." And the more that we can have that compassion for others, we're literally practicing compassion in that moment. And then we need to just keep practicing it for ourselves. And when I say the word practice, I want you to think about a kid going on a soccer field and learning how to practice soccer. So if anybody's watched a toddler practice soccer, it's hilarious. They've got these tiny little feet and there's this enormous ball, and they literally can't make contact. They can't get their tiny foot to kick the enormous ball. And we don't say to them, "Oh my God, you're terrible at this. You might as well just give up." We bring them back to the field week after week and they keep practicing, and eventually they turn into amazing soccer players and they can actually kick the ball. They can do these amazing things because they kept showing up. Eventually it got easier. They develop this muscle memory. And so to the extent that we can keep showing up for ourselves and practicing these words, I have to tell you, I literally have these words on a sticky note because I couldn't come up with them in that moment. I was like, "I think I'm supposed to be being nice to myself. I'll know what that sounds like." And now they just come naturally. And I say to myself, "It's okay, this is hard. I don't want to do hard things. But I can."
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(37:04):
完全正确。我认为，这又回到了正念的概念上。当我开始练习冥想时，他们总是告诉我，你知道，这是一块肌肉。你得练练肌肉。这句话一直让我产生共鸣，因为它是如此真实。即使当你试图构建它的时候，你会感到沮丧，但一旦你拥有了它，你就能正确地使用它，我的意思是，结果会好得多。
Carla Naumburg博士(37:29):
当然，对于那些在想“她是在开玩笑吗?”我应该开始每天冥想吗?我有太多事情要做了。”不，我们不是这么说的。请不要认为这是你成为一个好父母或更好的父母必须做的事情。我们说的是有策略。我在书中谈到了很多，可以让养育孩子更容易一些。通常它只需要放慢速度，在最激动的时候做几次呼吸。所以你可以让自己冷静下来，不要把它弄丢。这是一件你可以练习并变得更好的事情。 If you forget to practice, that's okay. You're still a great parent. These things happen.
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(37:59)
完全正确。
Ann Gadzikowski (37:59):
我知道我们在一起的时间快结束了。卡拉，你有什么要点或最后的提示想传达给正在收听我们播客的父母吗?
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(38:10):
我只想对家长们说，你们并不孤单。我们都在一起。我们都在一起奋斗。我们都在一起寻找美好的时刻，但这不会永远持续下去。在我们录制这期播客时，我们正处于疫情期间学校的一段特别艰难的时期，无论疫情开始到什么程度，人们都在努力工作。这对我们所有人来说都很难。如果很难也没关系，这并不意味着你做错了什么，这也不会永远持续下去。
安·加济科夫斯基(38:34):
很高兴听你这么说。我很感激。谢谢你！
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(38:37):
是的，不，我真的很感谢我们今天的谈话，非常感谢你抽出时间和我们分享了很多非常好的智慧，整个谈话的另一个收获是自我同情的想法，以及它是多么重要，尤其是在今年。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(38:53):
绝对的。
安·加济科夫斯基(38:53):
所以，让我们都去降低我们的期望吧!
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(38:57):
我爱你，安!。这是最好的。让我们就此结束。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(39:01):
太棒了。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(39:02)
感谢收看本期《培养好奇的学习者》。特别感谢我们今天的嘉宾卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士，她是一名临床社会工作者，也是畅销书《如何停止对孩子失去你的Sh*t》的作者，她提醒我们正念和自我同情的重要性，尤其是在今年。你可以在carlanaumberg.com和Instagram @carlanaumberg上找到她。我是伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基，我的搭档是安·加兹考斯基。我们节目的音频工程师和编辑是Emily Goldstein。如果你喜欢本期视频，请订阅苹果播客，留下评论并与你的朋友分享。本节目版权归大英百科全书公司所有。yabo亚博网站首页手机版权所有。
安·加济科夫斯基(39:56):
本期节目由《家长不列颠百科全书》提供，这是一个免费网站，为您的家庭提yabo亚博网站首页手机供专家建议。无论你是想知道如何向你三岁的孩子解释zoom，还是想知道如何看待你的孩子与Siri的新友谊，我们都在britannica.com上为你提供帮助。yabo亚博网站首页手机
您正在收听的是《大英百科全书》家长播客节目《培养好奇的学习者》，在节目中，我们与专家对话，讨论儿童发展、教育和育儿方面的问yabo亚博网站首页手机题和趋势。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(00:33):
欢迎回到《培养好奇的学习者》。我是伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基，和往常一样，我的搭档是安·加兹科夫斯基。在《父yabo亚博网站首页手机母的大英百科全书》中，我们知道养育子女是世界上最难的工作之一，我们今天的嘉宾是一位专家，他试图让你们的父母生活变得更容易一些。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(00:57):
毫无疑问，疫情给家长们带来了很大的压力。
Ann Gadzikowski (01:01):
你知道，我认识的每一位父母和照顾者，我交谈过的每一个人，都在与远程学习、社交距离、经济担忧以及疫情造成的所有其他新情况造成的所有新压力作斗争。在《大英百科全书》中，我们为父母提供的主要关注点是yabo亚博网站首页手机提供资源，帮助他们应对这种新常态。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(01:22)
完全正确。所以今天在我们的播客中，我们要和一位专家谈谈如何帮助父母应对这种压力。今天我们要欢迎Carla Naumburg博士。她是作家、母亲和临床社会工作者。她的最新著作是《如何停止对孩子发脾气:成为一个更冷静、更快乐的父母的实用指南》。谢谢你今天的到来，卡拉。
Carla Naumburg博士(01:43):
谢谢你！我很高兴来到这里。
Ann Gadzikowski (01:45):
欢迎,卡拉。我们很高兴能和你谈话。不如你先告诉我们你是如何对为父母写书产生兴趣的?
卡拉·瑙伯格博士(01:53):
哦，这很简单。当我为人父母时，我很快意识到我不知道自己在做什么，而且这比我想象的要困难得多。我一直在努力解决问题，在写作中找到答案，无论是像我小时候写日记一样，还是写关于育儿的书。所以，嗯，这就是我开始写这本书的原因，当时我真的想找出一些答案，一些策略，一些如何管理养育子女的想法，然后就写了书。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(02:20)
你知道，养育孩子似乎越来越难，这甚至是在大流行之前。我很好奇，为什么这么多父母在挣扎，疫情是如何让情况变得更糟的?
卡拉·瑙伯格博士(02:32):
好的。所以，让我们来解决为什么在大流行之前养育孩子似乎更难的问题。我认为这有几个原因。我想可能每一代人都觉得养育孩子很难，但我确实认为养育孩子是独一无二的困难。我认为有几个原因。
“First parenting”在20世纪70年代之前并不是一个动词。如果你读过Jennifer Senior的书，“所有的快乐和没有乐趣”，这是一本关于育儿的社会学探索，她指出，你知道，那些和孩子呆在家里的女人——真的是女人——过去被称为“家庭主妇”。他们的工作是照看房子。你知道，你把孩子放在该放的地方或者让孩子出去玩。你打扫干净熨烫床单。现在，呆在家里的女性被称为“呆在家里的妈妈”。如果你的房子很乱也没关系，没关系。如果你的床单没熨过，那我也没熨过。我都不知道你为什么要这么做。因为你的工作就是照顾好你的孩子。 And so all of a sudden there is this pressure on parents that I think didn't really exist before. Our job before was to keep our kids alive long enough that they could pick up whatever the family job is. You learn to be a doctor like your father. You learn to be a blacksmith or a farmer, whatever it is. And now we are preparing our children for an unknown future, right? My husband works for businesses that work on apps, not appetizers, like applications on phones, right? So these phones, the internet, wasn't a thing when we were kids. Phones, weren't a thing when we were kids. Apps, weren't a thing. So literally he's working in jobs that didn't exist when we were children, and I think parents are acutely aware that we're supposed to prepare our children for things that don't even exist yet, and that's really anxiety provoking.
我还认为，社交媒体在为什么现在育儿如此困难的问题上发挥了巨大的作用，因为我们得到的关于育儿应该是什么样子的信息往往是不准确、不真实或不现实的。它们就像过滤版的父母最好的时刻。然后我们都认为没有别人的孩子会崩溃，这是不对的。
最后，这听起来有点丰富，来自一个写了很多育儿书的人，但我认为育儿专家实际上让事情变得更难。比如有人能成为真正的育儿专家?我认为这也建立了一种不切实际的想法，即有些人已经掌握了这项工作，并且知道如何让他们的孩子第一次就穿上鞋子。老实说，我也很纠结。我们都需要。所以我认为育儿专家的想法是非常有用的。绝对的。但我认为这是一把双刃剑，它们也会让事情变得更难。自从大流行以来，我的意思是，现在一切都变得更加困难了。所有这些，但是有很多原因。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(04:59)
我有个简短的跟进。在你的书中，你提到我们这代人在养育孩子方面大喊大叫，你认为这是因为像你说的，养育孩子越来越难了吗?或者你有没有想过，为什么我们这代人会大喊大叫，而其他父母则会更多地打孩子屁股，我只是好奇。
Carla Naumburg博士(05:20):
所以我认为每一代父母都以不同的方式对他们的孩子严厉。我是说，我们以前打小孩，对吧。过去有很多，可以被描述为忽视的，尽管这可能很常见，我不想说合适，但对于那种风格或那个社区来说真的很常见或典型。但我认为现在我们知道打孩子是非常非常不好的，你不应该打你的孩子，但父母仍然会因为各种原因感到压力很大。我是说，即使在好日子里，为人父母也很难。所以他们就会大喊大叫。但我认为我们更多地谈论它的原因之一是因为，我认为在人性中，我们第一次真正关心与孩子的关系。现在让我说清楚，我不是说以前不关心他们的孩子。我并不是说前几代父母不爱他们，但我们是第一代被明确告知，你和孩子的关系很重要，这可能会影响他们长大后成为什么样的成年人。以前的人都没听说过。 I mean, you remember all these psychological studies about kids who were being left in cribs and don't, don't over love your baby because you'll damage them and don't touch them or hug them too much. And now we're being told just the opposite that you need to give them sort of the perfect and exact right amount of love and attention, or you're going to screw them up forever. And so I think that makes parents these days perhaps feel even more guilty when we lose our temper than previous parents may have. But let me be clear. I'm not saying this generation of parents is any worse at it, I just think we have a lot more pressure on us.
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(06:41)
是的。这让我想起在我们推出《父母的大英百科全书》网站之前我所做的一些研究，在那里我观察了千禧一代的父母，他们更有可能把他们的孩子视为他们的朋友之一，这就是为什yabo亚博网站首页手机么这种关系现在在界限之间造成了更多的融合。
Carla Naumburg博士(07:02):
绝对的。我的意思是，没有上一代人会说他们会说，这是我的后代。这是我未来的保险。这个人将会继续家族事业。这并没有什么错。这就是世代相传的方式，对吧?
Ann Gadzikowski (07:13):
你说的关于科技的事真的让我很吃惊。技术变化得如此之快，任何人都很难跟上它。所以这肯定给父母增加了额外的压力，因为他们并不总是了解他们的孩子正在使用的技术。
Carla Naumburg博士(07:29):
哦，我完全同意。压力存在于很多层面，不仅是父母对科技的参与，尤其是当我们的孩子还小的时候，比如，“我应该用一个应用程序来记录他们一天有多少尿布吗?”到社交媒体，“其他父母都在做什么，我做得对吗?”现在，在大流行期间，这一点尤其突出，对于我们这些有大孩子的人来说，“他们有多少屏幕时间?他们看电视的时间是怎样的?我要有多害怕才行"我的意思是，我的女儿们现在正在玩《Roblox》，这不是这款应用的广告。这只是一个诚实的披露，这就是她们正在做的事情。因为我丈夫和我都在工作。他们非常感谢，我非常感谢在疫情期间有半天的学校，这太神奇了。但正常情况下，他们现在应该还在学校。事实并非如此。 So they're on screen time. Cause that's the only way I know they're not going to interrupt me during this podcast. So I absolutely agree with you that there's so much fear and worry about how will screen time and the amount of screen time our kids get impact their development and growth. And again, we are a pioneering generation of parents in this way for better or for worse. You know, when I was a kid, I got a huge amount of screen time, but the phrase "screen time" didn't even exist. I watched like "The Love Boat" and "The A Team". I'm not saying that was great. And now there's so many different options and what should I be choosing? And what should I allow and how much? I don't know, it's challenging.
Ann Gadzikowski (08:44):
然后随着大流行，每个人都24小时在家，父母需要休息一下。
Carla Naumburg博士(08:49):
父母需要休息一下。但父母也需要工作。
Ann Gadzikowski (08:52):
真实的。
Carla Naumburg博士(08:53):
如果你是一位足够幸运的父母，你可以在家工作。你知道，你好像中了彩票，因为你有一份工作，你可以在家里做。那你怎么照顾你的孩子呢?即使是已经长大到可以自娱自乐的孩子，一天也只有那么多时间。至少这是我和我的孩子们的经历，我认为他们自己玩得很好，但在他们完成之前，他们要做的拼图、要读的书或我能让他们参与的艺术项目是有限的，要么我还得工作，要么我太累了，无法娱乐他们。所以，是的，屏幕出来了。绝对的。
Ann Gadzikowski (09:23):
在压力这么大的时候，真的需要育儿专家给我们一些指导。你的很多建议和想法似乎都基于正念的重要性。你能谈谈你工作中的正念吗?
Carla Naumburg博士(09:38):
绝对的。所以我写这本书的目标之一就是写一本从根本上讲正念的书，而不是真正使用“M”这个词，因为我认为它会让一些父母失去兴趣，它会唤起这种感觉，“哦，你应该去吃你的羽衣甘蓝。”对了，我受不了羽衣甘蓝。但是关于做一个用心的父母意味着什么有各种各样的假设。我说的是找到一种策略和一种练习，让你放慢脚步，足够地跳出你自己的思维，真正地关注当下发生的事情，而不是，你知道，你自己的大脑里所有的嗡嗡作响。担心未来，担心过去，为可能发生或可能没有发生或可能永远不会发生的事情感到压力。当我们能从不断的胡思乱想中走出来，回到当下，注意到真正发生的事情，我们就能成为更有效的父母，更冷静，更善良，更少反应的父母。我进入正念的方式是，我在书中写了这个，我有点绝望，想要找到一种停止对我的孩子大喊大叫的方法，以至于我真的坐下来——这是几年前的事了——在谷歌上搜索，“我如何停止对我的孩子大喊大叫?”我在谷歌搜索栏中输入了这些词，并记住，当时我刚刚完成临床社会工作的博士学位，这基本上是一个大情感和混乱思想的高级学位。我想不出来。 So it's, it's really a struggle, but I would say that mindfulness and this ability to notice when my brain is spinning out of control, when I am parenting from a place of regret or worry or anxiety or anger, to notice that's what's happening for me and find a way to kind of slow down and come back to the present moment. And that's been especially important during the pandemic when I can really notice myself getting super anxious, right? I think one of my favorite memes of this year says "Welcome to 2020. If you do not yet have an anxiety disorder, one will be assigned to you." Which is both like funny and also so sad and awful. But you know, we are living in an incredibly unbelievably anxiety-provoking time. And I don't want to parent from that place of anxiety, not only because then I make decisions that aren't grounded necessarily in reality, but also because I get incredibly irritable when I'm anxious. That's one of my sort of red flags is I get very cranky with my kids and I don't want to do that. So when I can manage my anxiety, which is about accepting it and noticing when it's triggered, I can parent from a more effective and empathic place.
伊丽莎白罗曼斯基(11:52):
我能理解和联系。我是一个随着焦虑的增加而变得易怒的人。所以我很好奇，你的很多策略就像你说的那样，重点是试图找出你的触发点，这样你就可以在达到峰值之前控制自己，比如崩溃点。今年可能——不可能，是——更有挑战性，因为它为父母创造了很多新的触发点。比方说，一位家长在今年之前很好地理解了什么会让他们生气，他们知道如何减轻它。但是今年又引入了很多新的诱因。那么他们是如何平衡现有的和这些新的呢?就像我，我觉得这里一片混乱。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(12:34):
绝对是一片混乱。我讲清楚一点。我在书中对诱因的定义是，诱因是任何让你更容易对孩子发脾气的东西。它可以是任何事情，你知道，疲劳和焦虑，到你付不起的账单，或者脚趾甲向内生长，或者，你知道，朋友对你说的一些令人沮丧的话，你不太确定如何解释，或者，你知道，有很多事情可以触发你，你是对的。我的意思是，对我们中的许多人来说，即使在大流行之前，我们大部分时间都在被触发，而触发，我的意思是，我们的神经系统被激活了。我们的防御已经建立起来，我们已经准备好失去它了。我在书中描述它的方式是我谈论我们的纽扣，我们所有人的身上都有这些隐喻性的纽扣。当我们被触发时，这些按钮会变得又大又亮又红，非常敏感，超级容易按。任何和孩子一起坐过电梯的人都知道，当孩子看到按钮时，他们就想按下去。不代表这孩子有什么问题。 It's just human nature, right? Our kids know, they know when we're triggered and often they may be triggered too. And so then they come along and they push the buttons and we lose it. For most of us, even before the pandemic, we were walking around triggered a lot, because more parents are working outside the home now than they ever were. And that, you know, constant exhaustion running around balancing work and life and all the things is a trigger. 24 hours news cycle is a trigger. Social media is a trigger, like all these things. So now enter this pandemic and we are all in an unbelievably heightened state, right? So even our baseline, even the best we can be is significantly more triggered than it was. And this is true for all of us. So what do we do? Well, we have to ramp up our coping skills, you know, for some people, maybe they have more time to do this because they're not schlepping their kids all over the place to soccer or, you know, to all the activities, right? So maybe they have a little more time, but you know, if you're out of a job, which means you have more time on your hands, your stress level has also gone up exponentially, right? Because you don't have a job, you don't have money. Lack of structure can be a trigger, all those things. And if your kids are home more, right? That lack of free time, free space, or just the time away from your kids. 'Cause let's be honest, those kids, they don't stop pushing buttons. Right? What I recommend for most parents is to whatever ability you can, you have to kick up your coping mechanisms around getting sleep, moving your body. I have a whole list of them in the book, but also this is the time when we have to dig deep for self compassion and realize that this is literally an experience that I think there are very few human beings alive who are around for the 1918 pandemic. Even those individuals, you know, that was a completely different pandemic if for no other reason than we didn't have internet. Right? So that changed everything. But literally none of us have lived through this before. None of us have parented in an age of the internet and a pandemic before. And there's, there's no rule book, there's no advice book. And so we have to just continue to have a huge amount of compassion for ourselves. That's really my number one strategy and practice. And I do a deep dive into self compassion in the book.
安·加济科夫斯基(15:20):
让我们举个例子看看父母们现在的处境。让我们从爸爸的角度来思考，因为我知道我们经常谈论妈妈，让我们把爸爸也包括进来。假设我们有一个在家工作的爸爸，也许他有一个伴侣，但他的伴侣那天感觉不舒服。所以爸爸知道他真的会在那天，他没有睡很多觉。他想了很多关于新闻的事。有一则新闻报道使他心烦意乱。那个爸爸怎么能把自我同情和自我照顾的理念带到他的孩子身上呢?
Carla Naumburg博士(15:56):
绝对的。我喜欢这个。让我们承认，如果妈妈身体不舒服，爸爸会担心妈妈感染了COVID吗?爸爸还有其他家庭成员吗，他关心或担心的父母，家庭经济安全吗?让我们承认这是一个挑战。这是我想对爸爸说的关于自我同情和自我照顾。
第一，把你一天要完成的事情的期望值降低。爸爸，如果你那天要上班，你有病假吗?你有可以请假的工作时间吗?如果没有，你今天还得工作。我希望，我的祈祷是你们有一个工作社区，在那里你可以对他们说:“嘿，我的妻子今天病了。我负责照看孩子。所以我只是想让你知道，如果我不像平时那样存在，这就是原因。”但我意识到，并不是每个人都有这样的工作群体，他们可以这样说，对吧?他们没有善解人意的老板或同事。然后爸爸，如果你需要的话，我要引用《野性》的作者格伦农·梅尔顿的话，我很崇拜她。 she's sort of a social media figure and a very popular writer, motivational speaker, she's got kids. If you need to put your kids in front of what she calls a quick seven hour TV show to get through the day, dad that's okay. That is, and I will tell you as someone who spent many summers, literally staring at the TV eight hours a day with my sister, because of the chaos of our own parenting situation, I went on to have a good life, right? I'm well educated. I have a husband, a supportive partner, kids. If that's what dad you need to do to get through this day, it is okay. Check in with your kids at the beginning of the day, spend some time with them at the end of the day, make sure to give them some food occasionally, like, that's what you gotta do.
如果爸爸有时间陪他的孩子，这是我的建议。一次只做一件事。我发现几乎不可能与孩子们互动或做其他任何事情。所以，如果爸爸对自己说:“哦，我要玩一款快速的大富翁游戏，还没轮到我的时候，我就拿出手机，查看我的工作邮件。”这是一场灾难。你最终会对你的孩子大发脾气。然后你会感到非常内疚，因为我们的大脑不能两者兼得。所以在力所能及的范围内，我鼓励他只做一件事，或者一次只做一件事。所以他对孩子们说:“我可以和你们玩半个小时的大富翁。我们不会在半小时内玩完这个大富翁游戏，因为大富翁游戏真的永远不会结束，但我可以为你玩半小时。 So I'm going to warn you that when the timer goes off, we have to stop the game, even if we're not at a good stopping point. So if we can all agree to that, and then I have to go do some work for half an hour and you guys can keep the game going yourselves, you can go watch a show, like whatever, and then we'll come back together." So I really encourage parents to focus on one thing at a time if they can.
然后可能在一天结束的时候，爸爸会觉得他做得不够好。这是我的猜测，因为这太难了。在那个年代，我不知道有谁能真正成功。我鼓励爸爸记住这对我们所有人来说都很艰难。甚至有些家长在社交媒体上说，“我教我的孩子今天的细胞是什么样子的。你知道，我们做了实验，我做了我的工作报告。”如果你看到了，首先，关闭社交媒体，但这对我们所有人来说都很难。这很难，没关系。这并不意味着你是个坏家长，明天又是新的一天。也许又是艰难的一天，但至少是新的一天。 So just find that positive, kind self-talk and if you don't have it within you go, go call somebody who does. Go talk to your parenting partner. If you have one, go talk to your parents or your friends, somebody who's going to say to you, Hey buddy, it's okay. This is a really hard time. It's not going to last forever and you don't have to be a perfect parent to be a good one. So, That's what I would say to dad.
Ann Gadzikowski (19:10):
我喜欢这个建议，降低期望。我认为每个人都需要这样做。这是非常棒的建议。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(19:20)
好的。是时候休息一下了，但别走开。我们马上回来。
Ann Gadzikowski (19:28):
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伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(20:01):
我很好奇。所以在书中你有一个很好的缩略词，我每次都从中得到乐趣，但它仍然做了一项了不起的工作，能够将熔毁的不同特征记录下来。我想知道你能否解释一下这个缩写。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(20:17):
是的。我可以解释这个。所以…它的首字母缩写是屁，你们的父母可能会觉得“恶心”，我特意把它放在这里，因为养育孩子有时很麻烦、很脏、很不愉快。显然我当妈妈太久了，因为厕所笑话还是会让我笑。但是，我试着利用我在书中所能利用的每一个机会来提醒父母，育儿这件事太严肃了，不能当真，我们必须自嘲。
但是，我真的想说清楚我所说的崩溃，父母和孩子的崩溃，因为我认为一些父母觉得任何时候他们对孩子表现出不愉快或消极的情绪，那就是崩溃，这是不对的。如果你感到生气、悲伤、沮丧、无助、失控、沮丧或焦虑，我不认为这是发脾气，这没有什么不对。让你的孩子知道你有这种感觉，这绝对没有什么错。但是当我们父母发脾气的时候有时会有一些特定的特征，这就更成问题了，我们都会这样做，对吧，但让我们来理解它们是什么。所以屁代表…F代表感情。我想说清楚的是，这些父母的崩溃，或者发脾气，失控。这是感情的问题。这是一种情绪化的反应，不是理性的。比如，我们大多数人工作一天后都不会回家，对我来说，这意味着现在从一个房间走到另一个房间，我们大多数人不会说，“哦，我想我现在要去和我的孩子们发脾气。” Right? It's about our feelings and our emotions, and many of us think we should be able to control our feelings, but guess what guys, we can't, nobody can control your feelings. They're just sort of there. They can be quite unpredictable, but I want parents to know this is it's a very emotional reaction. Meltdowns are often automatic. The "A" stands for automatic. So that means it's, it's neither conscious nor intentional. It's just sort of this automatic reaction, and reaction is what the "R" is for. In reaction to something else, and many of us may say, well, of course I lost it in reaction to my kid's ridiculous behavior, but sometimes we lose it when our kids aren't actually doing anything that bad. I mean, I can get so triggered at points that my daughter literally walks in the room and I want to be like, go away, walk out, leave, just turn around and leave. I can't handle you right now. And she's not done anything wrong. And sometimes she is actually being annoying, but it's nothing inappropriate for a 10 year old and I still lose it.
所以我们要看看我对什么做出了反应?我想说是我孩子的问题，但也可能是因为那天早些时候我和我丈夫不愉快的谈话。也许只是因为我们生活在一场流行病中，我再也无法应对了。你知道，也许是我昨晚在新闻上看到的一些事情，我还在思考，我实际上在某种程度上对此有反应。反应也是一个响应对真实的或者所感知到的危险,当我们的神经系统处于高度戒备状态,然后一个孩子出现和按下一个按钮,根据我们自己的历史作为父母,如果我们有一个创伤的历史在我们的童年,或是否有其他事情对我们来说,我们的神经系统会感知威胁我们的孩子的行为在某种程度上,尽管如此,你知道,我们大脑的深思熟虑的“成人”部分,我们的前额叶皮层可能知道,“哦,不,这孩子不是来威胁我的”，但是我们大脑的其他部分，一种非常深层的爬行动物，也许是非常古老的部分，一些我们童年的旧磁带现在正在播放，可能实际上会把它视为威胁，然后我们对此做出反应，甚至通常都没有意识到。“F”代表感觉，“A”代表自动，“R”代表反应，“T”代表有毒。
这就是我们要在父母的反应行为和真正有问题的行为之间划清界限的时候。假设你的孩子要躲到街上一辆车前面，你因为担心而用力抓住他的胳膊，把他拉了回来。所以这是一个适当的，合理的反应因为你在努力保护你孩子的安全，对吗?但假设你做类似的事情，当他们刚刚把牛奶洒出来时，你抓住他们的胳膊，把他们从桌子上使劲拉起来。这是一种不可预测的，不成比例的反应，这让孩子们感到困惑。这种程度的困惑对孩子来说是有害的。我不想吓到父母。我并不是说这种情况一直都在发生，但如果这种情况太强烈，太不可预测，太不相称，发生得太频繁，它真的会影响孩子的发展以及他们与父母的关系。所以如果你发现自己为打翻的牛奶尖叫，那么这可能是一个问题，这里发生了什么，为什么我对打翻的牛奶会有这种失控的反应?这就是我对崩溃的描述它是关于感觉的，它是自动的，它是反应性的，它是有毒的。 Yeah.
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(24:28):
我认为这很重要，你在开头提到的你可能认为你正在崩溃，但你可能没有。所以这里有一个帮助你识别的简单方法，因为我认为因为每个人，尤其是今年，都更加焦虑和担心成为一个好父母。他们可能会接受他们说过的话，甚至是在有车经过时保护他们的想法，他们可能会认为这太过分了，或者他们失去了理智。所以你真的需要识别并确定，你知道，在什么真正失去它和什么没有之间有明确的区别。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(25:02):
正确的。我总是对父母说，你在孩子面前有感情不仅是可以的，而且是可取的!我们希望我们的孩子明白，有强烈的感觉是可以的，即使是不愉快的感觉。这没什么不对的。这并不意味着你做错了什么。这并不意味着会发生危险的事情。这是人性的一部分。在一段关系中你可以有很大的感受。在一段关系中，你可以伤心，可以生气，可以沮丧，可以困惑，可以不知所措。这并不意味着你们的关系有任何问题。 So hopefully by now, my girls know that there are times when I get mad at their dad and when he gets mad at me, but that we love each other. We've been together for a long time. We're in a solid relationship, but that's normal. That's typical. So I want my kids to know that. So I encourage parents to find ways to identify their feelings when they're with their kids and say, "I'm feeling really mad right now. And I actually need to take a break so I don't yell at you guys." And that's the thing that I've been known to do. And my kids now know that when I go in the kitchen and put my hands flat on the counter and take a few deep breaths, they should probably leave me alone for awhile.
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(25:59):
是的。开始备份吧。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(26:01):
退后，离母亲远点。
Ann Gadzikowski (26:03):
他们也是像我一样的父母。当我不开心的时候，我就会变得很安静。我不会大喊大叫，我只是变得很安静。我知道你写过很多没说出来的话和说出来的一样多。你对安静的父母有什么建议吗?
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(26:18):
我想对安静的父母说的是，就像大喊大叫一样，就像任何情绪的表现一样，不管你看起来是什么样子，你都想向你的孩子解释，背后发生了什么，然后说:“你知道吗?我生气的时候会很安静。这是对我来说的一种方式。”因为孩子们的问题是他们非常以自我为中心，这只是正常的发展过程，最终，大多数人会长大，这并不意味着你的孩子是精神病患者。他们没有任何问题。但这样做的副作用之一是，他们认为自己是所有发生的事情的原因。所以，如果我们不对孩子说:“我感到难过，因为某某事发生了。”他们可能会想，哦，我是妈妈沉默的原因。我做错了什么。我就是妈妈大喊大叫的原因。 And then they sort of take responsibility for our feelings, which nobody is responsible for anybody else's feelings. It's just not how it works. And so it's really important when we can - and sometimes we don't get this clarity until after the moment has passed - It's really important to say to kids, "I was feeling X, Y, and Z, and that's why I did X, Y, and Z." Now, when I say that kids often learn more from what's unsaid than what we say, kids are super tuned into us and they're meant to be developmentally and evolutionarily they are because we keep them alive. So they need to know what's going on with us because we're the ones who protect them. And so if we say to a kid, "I'm fine!" They're not going to fall for that. They know. Right? And so if we say to a kid nothing's wrong and they can clearly sense that something's wrong, they're going to start building up stories in their mind. Right? "Is mommy mad at me? Did I do something wrong? Is this virus way worse than I think it is? Is somebody sick in my life? Are my parents getting a divorce? Like, did the dog die?" I mean, kids brains can really spiral out of control. And so I think one of the causes of stress in a family, not only for parents, but for children, is when we're afraid to describe our emotions, because we're afraid that it's going to make them stronger. We're afraid that things are going to get out of control. We're afraid that it's going to scare our kids, but it's actually more scary for kids and for adults to not know what's going on. So I really encourage parents when they're calm to talk to their kids about what happened and why.
Ann Gadzikowski (28:18):
是的。这真的很重要。当艰难的事情发生时，我认为每个人都想忘记它，继续前进，但重要的是花一分钟谈谈发生了什么，作为一个家庭来汇报情况，这样你的孩子就能更好地理解。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(28:32):
是的，我是说，我觉得我觉得你不必每次都这么做。不是每一刻都是学习的时刻。有时候事情就这样发生了，我们可以继续生活，你知道，父母对孩子发脾气，孩子对父母发脾气，有时最好的办法是忽略它，继续生活。但如果你看到了一种模式，就像我女儿和我一次又一次地陷入其中，最后我对她说，“当你说这些时，我不知道该怎么办。”她说:“说实话，我真的不知道我为什么这么说”——我认为这是真的。她说:“妈妈，你能不能忽略它，继续生活。”我说，“是的，大多数时候我都能做到。”所以我们一致认为这就是我们要做的。但如果这是一个重大时刻，如果这是一个非常破坏性的、有压力的、令人困惑的时刻，或者如果它变成了一种模式，那么我认为在你冷静的时候谈论它，当你合理地冷静的时候。不要试图欺骗自己。 If you're still ramped up and triggered and you go try to talk to your kid about it, you're just going to end up snapping at them again. But when you're legitimately calm, you can go try to talk to them and it may or may not get anywhere, but you can try.
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基:
是的。甚至早些时候，当你说你如何能够识别并告诉你的孩子你可能需要休息一段时间，我认为这对父母来说也是一个非常重要的工具。这是一个非常简单的方法来缓解你的情绪和缓和情绪。你知道，即使是戈特曼夫妇也会说，当你和你的配偶或伴侣吵架时，他们会说暂停，但当你和你的孩子在一起时，也要这样做。因为如果你至少能承认，你有这种感觉，然后如果你向他们展示你可以对自己的情绪足够负责，并且尊重他们，他们可能不值得你崩溃，你只是休息一下，那么对每个人来说都更容易。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(30:02):
绝对的。我认为许多父母对此感到不舒服，因为这感觉像是在向孩子展示脆弱，或者是承认自己的弱点。另外，父母们，孩子们已经知道你们所有的弱点了。他们绝对了解他们。他们知道你的纽扣，他们的小手指正好适合你。但我是这么想的。我想的是，我希望我的孩子能够做出什么样的行为。我为他们做了什么榜样?而不是把他们的脚埋在一场没有人会赢的战斗中，没有人记得它是如何开始的，你知道，然后，把它放大。如果这是发生在操场上或教室里或与他们的兄弟姐妹，那不是我想让我的孩子做的事情。 I would love it if my kid could say, "Whoa, I need to go take a time out and go in the other room." Like, that would be amazing, and the way they're going to learn it is by watching us do that. And so I apologize to my kids when I lose it, right. I don't apologize for my feelings cause no feelings were ever wrong. And you never have to apologize for how you feel, even if it's the ugliest most unpleasant feeling ever. But we do need to apologize for our behavior sometimes, right? "I was feeling angry and I'm really sorry I yelled at you." And after you apologize, then you can talk about maybe your kid's role in it. If they're, if your kid played some role, if their behavior was problematic, you can talk about that too. But that's after you've offered your sincere apology. So it can't be like, "I'm sorry, I yelled at you, but you throw the ball in the house 27 times when I told you not to." That's not an apology, right. I wish it was. So after you've legitimately apologized then you can talk to your kid about their role in whatever happened, but that's fine to you can apologize.
Ann Gadzikowski (31:30):
卡拉，我很好奇你在为你的书写作和研究的过程和经历，你在写作和研究的过程中有没有学到什么东西真正改变了你，改变了你为人父母的方式?
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(31:43):
噢,是的。很多事情。说实话，大部分都可以追溯到正念。我是一个坚定的怀疑论者。当我进入正念的世界时，我想，“这是为那些喜欢打鼓的肮脏嬉皮士准备的。”真的吗?我太可怕了。我太武断了。这不是为我的A型人格做的，打勾，做事。我在正念训练中学到的策略、技巧和见解，改变了我的生活，改变了我的教育方式，我认为最大的一个就是自我同情。 Because it used to be that every time I would lose it with my kids, I would go into the kitchen, search for chocolate to shove into my face, and think about all the ways I was failing as a parent and what a horrible mother I was. And here's the thing that, that kind of horrible self-talk is actually a trigger. So in the moment it would have been more helpful for me to be trying to calm down. I was actually getting myself more amped up, and then when I would go interact with my kids again, I was much more likely to yell at them, which it was the one thing I was feeling most guilty about. So now I still go in the kitchen. I still occasionally look for chocolate, I will not lie, but I am more likely to think to myself, okay, this is a hard day it's okay. Every parent has hard days. Doesn't mean I'm a bad parent. What do I need? And what do my kids need? And thinking about what we all need is not only inherently compassionate, but it's much more skillful, cause sometimes I'll think to myself, "Oh, my kid hasn't eaten in four hours. She's hangry, but she's not going to do any better until I feed her," which she inherited from me. Sorry, kid. Or, "Oh yeah. I'm actually having a really hard day because for some reason I've been doom scrolling through social media. So I need to put my phone in the other room and get away from it." So when I can have that moment of self compassion, it calms down my triggers. It makes me less likely to yell at my kids. And it often gives me some clarity on what's actually going on so I can then do something differently so I'll be less likely to lose it in the future. I would say that self compassion has become the most powerful strategy. One that I use every single day. I'm much more likely to be compassionate with my children, and so I actually lose my temper with them so much less because of it.
Ann Gadzikowski (33:37):
自我同情是，很难实践的。我和一些父母有过这样的对话，我想到了我现在认识的一位有小孩的母亲。她知道她需要对自己更有同情心。这太难了，尤其是当你这么忙的时候，要给自己一个信任。我希望我能为正在经历这些的朋友们做更多的事情。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(34:01):
所以，你可以做点什么。你还说了很重要很明智的话。我的意思是，我们能做的就是在他们没有的时候为他们发出同情的声音。我是这么想的。练习自我同情就像学习一门新语言。这就像学习一门新的语言，因为对我们大多数人来说，我们的父母不会对我们说。这并不是因为我们的父母有什么问题。这是因为它在很长一段时间里都不是一个概念，尤其是在西方文化中。我读完了心理学学士学位，社会工作硕士学位和社会工作博士学位。我从来没有听过这些词放在一起，直到我开始研究正念，我才了解到它。 So when we first try to speak the words of self compassion, they feel weird. They feel corny and cheesy. And like, do you guys remember the Saturday night live skit of Stuart Smalley who would sit in front of the mirror and look at himself and say, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh, darn it, people like me." None of us really want to be that guy, and so it feels really strange. It's really hard to find the words. And when we can't find them, we default back to whatever we used to say to ourselves, our native language, which is usually beating ourselves up. So how do we learn this new language? First of all, we spend time with people who will speak that language to us, that language of compassion. And so when my friends call me and they're in this place of like, "Oh, I had a horrible day and I'm a terrible parent. I'm screwing this up and my kids are going to be a mess." I try to refrain from giving them advice. And this is really hard because I love to give people advice, but I try not to do it because when you give people advice, what you're saying is "You could have done better, and here's how." So, even though we're doing this from a place of compassion, it often doesn't come across that way. So I try to just say, "Yeah, that sounds awful. I am sorry. This stinks. This is so rough. And then what happened?" I try to be curious with them. 'Cause curiosity is an inherently compassionate stance because what we're saying is "I care enough about you to continue to listen to your story. Your story matters to me." Maybe we'll laugh with them if we can, but being careful not to laugh at them. Um, but continuing to say, "Yeah, it's okay. This is really hard. You're not a bad parent. We've all been there." And the more that we can have that compassion for others, we're literally practicing compassion in that moment. And then we need to just keep practicing it for ourselves. And when I say the word practice, I want you to think about a kid going on a soccer field and learning how to practice soccer. So if anybody's watched a toddler practice soccer, it's hilarious. They've got these tiny little feet and there's this enormous ball, and they literally can't make contact. They can't get their tiny foot to kick the enormous ball. And we don't say to them, "Oh my God, you're terrible at this. You might as well just give up." We bring them back to the field week after week and they keep practicing, and eventually they turn into amazing soccer players and they can actually kick the ball. They can do these amazing things because they kept showing up. Eventually it got easier. They develop this muscle memory. And so to the extent that we can keep showing up for ourselves and practicing these words, I have to tell you, I literally have these words on a sticky note because I couldn't come up with them in that moment. I was like, "I think I'm supposed to be being nice to myself. I'll know what that sounds like." And now they just come naturally. And I say to myself, "It's okay, this is hard. I don't want to do hard things. But I can."
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(37:04):
完全正确。我认为，这又回到了正念的概念上。当我开始练习冥想时，他们总是告诉我，你知道，这是一块肌肉。你得练练肌肉。这句话一直让我产生共鸣，因为它是如此真实。即使当你试图构建它的时候，你会感到沮丧，但一旦你拥有了它，你就能正确地使用它，我的意思是，结果会好得多。
Carla Naumburg博士(37:29):
当然，对于那些在想“她是在开玩笑吗?”我应该开始每天冥想吗?我有太多事情要做了。”不，我们不是这么说的。请不要认为这是你成为一个好父母或更好的父母必须做的事情。我们说的是有策略。我在书中谈到了很多，可以让养育孩子更容易一些。通常它只需要放慢速度，在最激动的时候做几次呼吸。所以你可以让自己冷静下来，不要把它弄丢。这是一件你可以练习并变得更好的事情。 If you forget to practice, that's okay. You're still a great parent. These things happen.
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(37:59)
完全正确。
Ann Gadzikowski (37:59):
我知道我们在一起的时间快结束了。卡拉，你有什么要点或最后的提示想传达给正在收听我们播客的父母吗?
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(38:10):
我只想对家长们说，你们并不孤单。我们都在一起。我们都在一起奋斗。我们都在一起寻找美好的时刻，但这不会永远持续下去。在我们录制这期播客时，我们正处于疫情期间学校的一段特别艰难的时期，无论疫情开始到什么程度，人们都在努力工作。这对我们所有人来说都很难。如果很难也没关系，这并不意味着你做错了什么，这也不会永远持续下去。
安·加济科夫斯基(38:34):
很高兴听你这么说。我很感激。谢谢你！
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(38:37):
是的，不，我真的很感谢我们今天的谈话，非常感谢你抽出时间和我们分享了很多非常好的智慧，整个谈话的另一个收获是自我同情的想法，以及它是多么重要，尤其是在今年。
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(38:53):
绝对的。
安·加济科夫斯基(38:53):
所以，让我们都去降低我们的期望吧!
卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士(38:57):
我爱你，安!。这是最好的。让我们就此结束。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(39:01):
太棒了。
伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基(39:02)
感谢收看本期《培养好奇的学习者》。特别感谢我们今天的嘉宾卡拉·瑙姆伯格博士，她是一名临床社会工作者，也是畅销书《如何停止对孩子失去你的Sh*t》的作者，她提醒我们正念和自我同情的重要性，尤其是在今年。你可以在carlanaumberg.com和Instagram @carlanaumberg上找到她。我是伊丽莎白·罗曼斯基，我的搭档是安·加兹考斯基。我们节目的音频工程师和编辑是Emily Goldstein。如果你喜欢本期视频，请订阅苹果播客，留下评论并与你的朋友分享。本节目版权归大英百科全书公司所有。yabo亚博网站首页手机版权所有。
安·加济科夫斯基(39:56):
本期节目由《家长不列颠百科全书》提供，这是一个免费网站，为您的家庭提yabo亚博网站首页手机供专家建议。无论你是想知道如何向你三岁的孩子解释zoom，还是想知道如何看待你的孩子与Siri的新友谊，我们都在britannica.com上为你提供帮助。yabo亚博网站首页手机
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